Episode 85
What Do People Really Fantasize About? Dr. Justin Lehmiller Reveals Findings from 10,000 Adults.
I'm thrilled to have Dr. Justin Lehmiller, renowned psychologist, sex researcher and author of "Tell Me What You Want," join me to uncover what people really fantasize about based on his groundbreaking survey of over 10,000 adults.
In this fascinating episode, I dive into the hidden world of sexual fantasies with Justin a psychologist who has conducted the largest study on what people actually fantasize about. As someone who works daily with patients struggling with sexual health concerns, I found this conversation incredibly revealing about what's happening in people's minds behind closed doors.
Justin reveals the seven universal fantasy themes that emerge across all demographics, from threesomes and kink to romance and taboo scenarios helping me understand what my patients are likely thinking about but afraid to discuss.
We explore the surprising finding that religiously and politically conservative people often fantasize about the very things they're "not supposed to" do, and how taboos actually amplify excitement through what he calls the "forbidden fruit effect."
One of the most valuable insights I gained was learning that 80% of people report positive experiences when sharing fantasies with partners, and how women who act on fantasies have higher orgasm rates.
We also discussed surprising findings about who people fantasize about most (hint: it's usually people they know, not celebrities), and how factors like age, gender, and culture shape our secret desires. Perhaps most importantly, we addressed how most people think their fantasies are much rarer than they actually are, creating unnecessary shame that impacts sexual wellbeing.
This conversation opened my eyes to just how normal and diverse human sexual fantasies really are. For anyone wondering if their thoughts are "weird" or struggling with shame around their desires, this episode offers both validation and practical insights.
Highlights:
- Justin surveyed over 10,000 people to uncover the seven most common sexual fantasy categories.
- Conservative people often fantasize about breaking the very taboos they publicly support.
- 80% of people have positive experiences when sharing fantasies with their partners.
- Most people fantasize about people they know rather than celebrities.
- Women who act on their fantasies report higher rates of orgasm.
Curious about more honest conversations around sexual health? I encourage you to subscribe to my podcast, for more candid discussions that help you advocate for your sexual wellness.
Do you have questions about sexual health? I always tell my listeners -don't hesitate to discuss your concerns with a qualified healthcare provider who specializes in sexual medicine. Remember: I'm here to educate so you can advocate for yourself.
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Transcript
So everyone, welcome to the show, Dr. Justin Lee Miller. Thanks, Justin. Thanks so much for being here today. Justin, I was so excited to be on your podcast as well, which was so much fun. So, you know, we'll make sure that people have access to that and are able to get in touch with you.
Justin Lehmiller (:Hi, Samina, thanks for having me.
Sameena Rahman (:But I want to just dive right in because again, I want to be cognizant of your time. Let's talk about some of the work that you've done in your recent book. But also like what brought you into this field? Like I'm always interested to know how people kind of like evolve into coming into the field of sexual health, sexual medicine, sexual psychology, all of it.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, for me, it was not like a lifelong dream to become a sex educator and researcher. It was something that just kind of happened where I was in graduate school working on my doctorate in social psychology and I was assigned to be a teaching assistant for a human sexuality course. And that just opened my eyes to this whole world of sex research that's out there. And, you for me, I was a product of Catholic school education for a lot of my life. So I didn't really get much in way of sex ed.
Sameena Rahman (:Right. Right.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:And so it was a big learning experience for me, but as part of being a TA for that course, I had to run these weekly discussion sections with small groups of students and they were asking me all of these sex questions that I did not know the answers to. So I just realized how little I knew and how little everybody else knew as well. And that's kind of what really prompted me to get into the field, to really...
Sameena Rahman (:Thank
Sameena Rahman (:not sure.
Justin Lehmiller (:and answer some of the questions that had never been answered before and help to equip people with the information they need to navigate their intimate lives. And so that led me down the path of becoming a sex researcher. And then eventually I got into the world of sexual fantasies where I wrote a whole book about this based on a very large survey of more than 4,000 American adults. And since publishing that book, I've now studied the sex fantasies of more than 10,000 people from all around the world. So I've got a lot that I can say on this topic.
Sameena Rahman (:anyone's.
Sameena Rahman (:that's amazing. Love it. Let's get into it. So your book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life, right? It's amazing. I loved going through it. Tell me about the basis of it. was, you said, 4,000 people that you surveyed nationally about their sexual fantasies. So tell me a little bit about why you did it and what are the big things that you found.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so it's funny, I didn't actually plan to write a book, but prior to that, I was a columnist for Playboy. And one of the very first pieces I wrote was on men who are turned on by the idea of watching their wives or girlfriends have sex with other men. This is called cuckolding, as it's known more popularly. And so I wrote this article and it went viral. And all of a sudden I had literary agents contacting me saying, hey, you should write a book.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Let's get into this some more.
Justin Lehmiller (:And so I was like, well, I don't think I could write a whole book about cuckolding. I mean, it could be done, but I wanted to look more broadly at sexual fantasies. so, you know, as somebody who had taught these courses for college students and was really familiar with the literature, I knew that there were a lot of limitations in the world of fantasy research. Like most of it was based on college students. So we didn't know what fantasies look like for people of different ages.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah. All right.
Sameena Rahman (:in
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:We also didn't know much about the connection between fantasy and reality. So how many people actually want to act on their fantasies? How many have done so? What are their experiences like? So I ended up designing this massive, almost 400 question survey, and I spent two years administering it to the largest group of people I could get. And I had people who came from all 50 states who completed this. And yeah, it really offers a comprehensive look into not just people's favorite fantasy of all time, but also
hundreds of different people, places, and things they might have ever fantasized about.
Sameena Rahman (:That's so awesome, actually. Like now you're like the cuck holding expert that never wanted to. Isn't it so funny how things evolve into this place?
Justin Lehmiller (:Hahaha.
Justin Lehmiller (:And to this day, I still get all kinds of media requests and interview requests on the topic of cuckolding. I didn't know that would become kind of defining for my career.
Sameena Rahman (:You're the joke-holding guy now. Well, what do you think, like, in your research that you've done, like, what are some of the most common sexual fantasies people have, but they don't want to talk about? Like, I feel like there's so much, I mean, the world of sexual medicine, sexual health, is really wrought with stigma. And I feel like, you know, if you actually admit some of your fantasies to people, like...
you know, they're really sometimes appalled and sometimes it's really hard to even admit it in public, right? So what are some of the like most common sexual fantasies that you have learned about or what they don't want to talk about?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so I will preface this by saying that, yeah, in terms of more taboo kinds of fantasies, people are less likely to disclose them because they tend to feel more shame around them. But it doesn't actually matter that much what the content of the fantasy is. What matters is how rare you perceive your fantasy to be. So one of the things I asked people about was, in terms of your favorite fantasy, what percentage of the population do you think also shares this fantasy? And people consistently underestimated.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:prevalence. And for people who thought their fantasy was rarer, no matter what it was, they felt more shame, guilt, embarrassment, and they were less likely to talk about it. you when it comes to feeling held back from talking about our fantasies, it's really, you know, those feelings of shame that are tied to us thinking we're alone in having those fantasies. But in terms of the most common fantasies people report, I found that there are really seven major themes that emerge. And
Sameena Rahman (:Really?
I don't
Justin Lehmiller (:In all the follow-up studies I've done, I find that these fantasies are consistently popular across different demographic groups, across different cultures. So there seems to be some universality to our fantasies, but some of the big ones include sex with multiple partners. So threesomes, foursomes, moresomes. Threesomes were kind of the most popular variant of that. Next, there was the kink and rough sex types of fantasies, anything that involves mixing pleasure and pain or playing with power.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah. Right.
All right.
Sameena Rahman (:PBS.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:Then there's the novelty and adventure fantasies, which are about just trying something that's new and different for you, like sex in a new setting or in a new position. It's just kind of putting a little twist on what you're doing. And then some of the other big fantasies are anything that is taboo or socially forbidden. The more we're told we shouldn't do something, the more tantalizing it kind of becomes. And so what is taboo within a given culture or for a different group of people?
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:can often become something that becomes the focal point of our fantasies because there's just that little extra element of excitement that comes along with being told we can't do something. And then of course, you've also got the passion and romance fantasies, the more romantic side of things. But yeah, those are some examples of some of the more common types of fantasies.
Sameena Rahman (:What do you think it is about like forbidden things that kind of like make people feel like even more turned on by them? You know, like people, is true. Like, you know, if we tell people not to do what they want, right.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, I mean, anybody who's a parent knows this is reverse psychology, right? so sex therapist Jack Moran wrote a book called The Erotic Mind, and he talks about this as the erotic equation. And basically what it means is attraction plus obstacles equals excitement. So if you have even the slightest inkling toward something sexually speaking, and then you're told you can't do it, you know, there's some obstacle that gets thrown up, that increases the
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, right,
Justin Lehmiller (:level of excitement around it. Now that doesn't mean that everybody is turned on by every taboo thing, right? There kind of has to be that sort of initial magnetism to it, just at least a little bit, and then the taboo element is kind of what amplifies the excitement factor.
Sameena Rahman (:I always go back and think about the whole Chandler and Monica when they first dated. They don't know that we know that you know that we're not.
Justin Lehmiller (:Right. secret relationships, you know, that
Justin Lehmiller (:That was actually the focus of my doctoral dissertation. I did a study on why people keep their relationships secret and what that experience is like. And actually, one of the things I wanted to test there was, is secrecy really as exciting as it's depicted in the popular media? And what I found was that, you know, in the short term, secrecy can be exciting. And it's also more exciting in certain contexts, like when people are having affairs or committing infidelity, like the
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:the secrecy factor around it can amplify the excitement. Right. Now that's a different level of excitement there. But what I find is that in ongoing relationships, like when you're in a long-term relationship and you can't share the fact that you're in that relationship with other people who are important to you in your life, and I'm not talking about affairs in this particular context, like imagine, for example, an interracial couple, a same-sex couple, a couple with a big age discrepancy and
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah. Unless you go to a Coldplay concert.
Justin Lehmiller (:maybe where they live, their relationship wouldn't be very socially accepted or maybe their family wouldn't accept it. And when people have to hide their relationship for a really long time, it becomes really taxing on the individual and on their relationship. And so I actually did a longitudinal study and found that people in secret relationships are actually more likely to break up over time because of that stress factor. yeah, taboos and secrecy can be exciting in like limited quantities, but over the long run, they become pretty taxing.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, I think I've seen that throughout my life with friends who, you know, were like, I'm Muslim, so they were dating, you know, non-Muslims, parents were immigrants, they're really upset about it, you know, different cultures that, you know, a parent group wouldn't agree on, and they were trying to keep it secret, but then, you know, they either exploded or they got married, I think. So, but I know it was like, for the most part, very stressful for most people.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:I mean, speaking about gender and race and like cultural backgrounds, do think there's differences in sexual fantasies? Like you said that there is like some you had noted some, but some there's some consistent themes and some are different based on the taboos around them. Did you find anything like, you know, really alarming or different in your research that you did?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so mean, fantasies vary a lot across demographic groups. mean, yes, there's a lot of commonality, a lot of similarities, but some of the key differences are, for example, if you look at gender, you do find that women have more romantic fantasies than men on average, but they also have more kink fantasies. And by contrast, men tend to have more fantasies about sex with multiple partners and non-monogamy and then doing taboo things. And if you look at something like race, ethnicity,
Sameena Rahman (:Thank
Sameena Rahman (:Mm-hmm.
Justin Lehmiller (:I do see that there are differences there as well. So for example, in looking at US data, I find that African-Americans compared to white Americans are reporting fewer taboo fantasies. And I think part of the explanation for that, I mean, it could be that maybe it's due to differences in level of religiosity, right? So I actually find that African-Americans have much higher rates of religious affiliations compared to white Americans. And so I don't know to what extent.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:the differences in race are based on, you know, just differences in something else that's confounded with race, like say religion. And then in terms of age, I think that's where some of the most interesting stuff is. You know, as I said, most of the research on fantasies until I came along had been done on college students. And what I find is that college students, I say this a lot, are actually kind of the least interesting group of people you could study if you want to learn about sexual fantasies.
Sameena Rahman (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:because they actually have the most restricted range of fantasy content. So what I see is that as people approach midlife, know, into their 40s and 50s, we see rates of multiple partner fantasies, non-monogamy fantasies, taboo fantasies, novelty fantasies, all of these things increase, right, from young adulthood to midlife. And then there's this decline in the 60s and beyond in basically all categories of fantasies. So...
Sameena Rahman (:All
Justin Lehmiller (:There's kind of this developmental time course where we start out young, we have a couple of fantasies, but as we get to midlife, we become pretty adventuresome. And then as we get older, frequency of all fantasies tends to drop off to some extent. Not to say that older adults don't continue to have fantasies or enjoy sex, just that they tend not to fantasize about it quite as much.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Right. Yeah, because then you have to think dimension, all those things probably into some of like what happens to, you know, older adults that are really debilitated and all the issues that come along with it. Do you think it's like the monogamy of monotony that kind of gets like, you know, these long term midlife relations? Because, know, obviously, you know, there's all these biological factors we kind of talked about, like in on your podcast, some of the stuff around midlife women and and all the issues that come up.
you know, whenever I have a man like women that I'm trying to like, you know, maybe replenish their testosterone for their hypoactive sexual desire disorder. I always say like, you know, when you start fantasizing about someone like Glenn Powell, then I know it's working. Well, like, know, like that, I'm wondering if some of that like, well, I this is interesting when you said that men like stuff changes, I'm sure it has something to do with the length of their relationships that they're in or anything like that.
Do you think that when couples start to share fantasies together, does it help relationships? Do people feel off put it by like, oh, now you're dreaming about Glenn Powell and you want to have sex? Like, do you know what saying? Like, what did you find in that?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah. Yeah. So you actually just gave me a great research idea. Like I actually have data on menopausal women and their sexual fantasies and whether or not they're using hormones or not. And so I need to look and see, you know, if menopausal women get testosterone, like does that maybe, do they have more fantasies compared to women who are not on hormone replacement? So I'm going to have to look into that after the show.
Sameena Rahman (:Mm. Uh-huh.
Sameena Rahman (:I wish it could happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Okay, yeah, maybe we should do a follow-up after you figure it
Justin Lehmiller (:But, you know, in terms of monogamy and monotony, yeah, I think, you for people at midlife, a big part of why they're fantasizing more about doing all of these diverse things in the bedroom is in part because many of them have been in long-term monogamous relationships and they're kind of yearning for something new and different. But I also think, you know, as we approach midlife, we often start caring a little bit less about what other people think. Some of us have a midlife crisis and realize, like,
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:hey, if there are things that I wanna do sexually, I need to do them now, otherwise I'm probably not gonna have the opportunity to do so. So I think midlife is an interesting period for a lot of reasons. But in terms of, you know, if people share their fantasies, what are their experiences like? The vast majority of people actually report positive experiences. And there was actually a new study that came out this year that tried to replicate my work and it found pretty similar findings to what I did, which is that about 80 % of people are reporting positive experiences sharing their fantasies.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:but it does vary to some extent based on the type of fantasy that they're sharing, right? So if you're sharing, say, a passion and romance fantasy, that does tend to be perceived more favorably compared to, let's say, a threesome fantasy. And that's not to say that threesome fantasies never work out. It's just that there's more potential for things to go wrong there, where your partner might interpret your interest in having a threesome as a sign that maybe...
you're not sexually fulfilled in the relationship or you're trying to replace them, right? So that's where discussions around fantasies can get fraught. It's when people don't take the care and effort to really kind of frame the fantasy in the right way to their partner that's gonna get their buy-in and that provides them with validation and feelings of safety and security and so forth.
Sameena Rahman (:Thank you.
Sameena Rahman (:Do you find a difference in either the rate of fantasizing or within a heterosexual couple or homosexual couple? Or is it more cis men versus cis women or trans men? Did you find any differences in the? I'm sure the types of fantasies might be different, but in terms of the rate of fantasizing and the extent to which those in couples might fantasize more or less.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so there definitely are differences in rates of fantasizing and types of fantasies when you're looking at things like sexual orientation. So the previous conclusion in the world of fantasy research was that if you look at, gay and straight people, that their fantasies don't differ except for the gender of the partners they're fantasizing about. And I find that that's actually not true. I find that actually, if you look at LGBTQ people, whether they're gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, non-binary,
they tend to have more fantasies about taboo activities, more fantasies about non-monogamy compared to people who are cisgender and heterosexual, right? So there are some differences in fantasy content there. LGBTQ people have more kink fantasies in general. And I think the question that often comes up here is, well, what explains or accounts for that?
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:difference. And I think part of it is that if you're an LGBTQ person, you've already violated certain sexual norms like the norm of heterosexuality. And that makes it less costly to violate other sexual taboos. And so I think it contributes to them exploring their sexuality maybe a little more fully in some ways. It could also be that somebody who let's say is kinky to begin with might be more inclined to, you know, acknowledge other
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:aspects of the self that are sexually diverse, right? So I think it could kind of go in either direction that if you're kind of kinky to begin with, you're more likely to acknowledge same-sex attraction. But if you're somebody who is gay, lesbian, bi, and so forth, that might also lead you to explore your sexuality more in different ways.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, that's true too. And what about like, I mean, you said you were a race Catholic, I'm Muslim. Like, did you see breaking down like different religions versus like, like I always think degree of religiosity, I see it in my work, like in terms of sexual pain and like public floor dysfunction, I feel like the degree of religiosity sometimes related to the shame and anxiety of intercourse has, you know, negative effect on my patients, right? Do you see this in the fantasy world as well?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so I didn't really get into comparing like differences across all different types of religions and instead looked more at high religiosity versus low religiosity. And I also looked at, you know, political affiliation. So differences in fantasies between Democrats and Republicans. And I find that there's some pretty similar parallels there, you know, in terms of looking at the political and religious side of things. And, you know, one of the things I see is that for people who are more
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:No.
Justin Lehmiller (:sexually conservative in general, they actually have more fantasies about things like non-monogamy and, you know, about sex with multiple partners. And it's interesting because, this is a group that, you know, their sexual values center around monogamy, but they're fantasizing about, you know, doing anything but. And I think that goes back to the erotic equation we were talking about earlier in this idea that the more restrictions you have placed on your sexuality, the more we
Sameena Rahman (:All right.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:of fantasize about breaking free from them. And so yeah, for a lot of, I think, politically and religiously conservative individuals, oftentimes they're fantasizing about things that they're not, quote unquote, supposed to be fantasizing about.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:That's so interesting. I feel like there was a president that admitted some sort of, can't remember the context, but. yeah. Yeah. I'm such a nice guy. All right. OK. So let's talk a little bit about when like.
Justin Lehmiller (:Jimmy Carter, I believe is who you're talking about. he's, think he said he had lust in his heart or something like that. And yeah, that was, that was the whole thing.
Sameena Rahman (:the perception of it's healthy or unhealthy to fantasize about certain topics. Like I imagine like someone who, I don't know, fantasize something that was illegal or, know, like a lot of people would find morally aberrant, you know, pedophilia for instance, right? Like some people would, but I'm sure there's so many people that do have these fantasies around that. do...
Is it healthy to fantasize about things that we wouldn't actually do in real life? Like, what do you think about that?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so I actually give a lot of trainings for sex therapists on the topic of sexual fantasies. And there's a component of my trainings that focuses on, you what is the role of sexual fantasy in sexual offending? Right. So if you have fantasies about doing something that would be illegal or criminal or non-consensual, does that necessitate that you're going to actually do those things in real life?
Sameena Rahman (:you
Sameena Rahman (:Right.
Justin Lehmiller (:And what we see in the research is that the concordance rate between fantasy and behavior isn't nearly as big as you think it is, right? So just because you fantasize about something does not make it a foregone conclusion that you're actually going to act it out in real life. And the concordance rate between fantasy and behavior is lower for more taboo things than it is for, you know, something at the, let's say the vanilla end of the spectrum, right? So.
Sameena Rahman (:Right.
Justin Lehmiller (:You know, I would say fantasy is not a... Yeah, so I would say fantasy is not a necessary or sufficient cause of sexual behavior. And sometimes people also engage in sexual behaviors that are criminal or illegal without having had the fantasy before previously, right? So it's complicated when we're talking about that link between fantasy and behavior. But I will say that the vast majority of people are going to have deviant sexual fantasies at some point in their lives. The vast majority also will not act on them.
Sameena Rahman (:and all these things.
Sameena Rahman (:Sure, yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:And so it's okay, I think, to have fantasies about things that you don't actually want to do and never would do. Like, I think that's just kind of a normal part of fantasy. You know, sometimes a thought spontaneously pops into your brain, but it doesn't mean that it represents a desire for you or something that you actually want to do or carry out. I think where we have cause for concern is if you're fantasizing about something that would be criminal and that is coupled with a desire to actually do that.
Sameena Rahman (:or intense.
Justin Lehmiller (:and intent, yeah. And it's also occurring in the context of certain facilitating factors, like somebody who has low self-regulatory ability or substance use disorder. It's kind of like this confluence of factors that really predict something like sexual offending. It's not enough to just say having the fantasy guarantees the behavior will happen.
Sameena Rahman (:It's kind of like when we talk to patients and they tell us they have a suicide or a homicidal ideation, but do you have a plan of action to go through with it? Right? Those would be different scenarios. So guess it would be a kind of a similar thing. I mean, if you had one of those fantasies though, like you're in a monogamous relationship.
Justin Lehmiller (:Mm-hmm.
Sameena Rahman (:Like do you tell your partner, like how do you, or how do you even talk to a partner about a really strange fantasy? then, know, not, you know, like, okay, I'm going to call my divorce lawyer now because I'm married or something.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah.
So here's the thing, when it comes to sharing fantasies, there can be lot of benefits in doing so, but you don't have to share any and all fantasies that you have in order to be happy or sexually satisfied. And I think before you share a fantasy, it's important to do a risk reward analysis and ask yourself the question of why do I want to share this fantasy with my partner in the first place? For example, is it because you want them to better understand you as a sexual being?
Sameena Rahman (:Sure.
Justin Lehmiller (:Is it because this fantasy is actually a desire and it's something that you would like to act out and to do with them at some point? Are you sharing it just as a form of like dirty talk where it's just kind of meant to be arousing? You know, what's the reason? What's the intent behind actually sharing it? So think about that. And then also think about what are the potential reactions my partner might have to this, you know? So if your fantasy is about having, say, a threesome,
you know, based on your knowledge of your partner, you can make a pretty educated guess as to how likely they are to be into your fantasy. And I talk about this in the book because there are so many correlations between our fantasies and our personality traits and our attachment styles. And so if you know something about your partner's personality and attachment style, like I said, you can make a pretty educated guess about what they might be into. So if your partner is somebody who, say, is very insecure in terms of their attachment style and they're also
you know, tend to be more neurotic in terms of their personality, where they don't deal well with stress and they tend to have more swings between positive and negative mood states. Throwing out the idea that you want to have a threesome or open up your relationship, odds are it's not going to go well, right? It's not to say that you can't be neurotic and insecure and also enjoy non-monogamy or threesomes or things like that. It's just it's more fraught for these individuals. And so you might start by sharing a fantasy that's at the, you know, tamer.
more vanilla end of the spectrum, something maybe that falls more in the category of romance and kind of explore that with your partner and see how it goes and build up the trust and intimacy and feelings of security and safety before you progress to sharing something that might be a little more intense.
Sameena Rahman (:Right. Do you, when you look at some of the sexual fantasies, like, you know, with pop culture and social media and all the things that we have really influencing us on a day to day basis, you know, like when, you know, when 50 shades of gray came out, there's like, you know, there's spikes and people having BDSM fantasies. Like, is that something that you see and also in your literature or in your research?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, I mean, I like to describe fantasies as being biopsychosocial, right? So there are biological factors that contribute to our fantasies. Like, for example, we know that the frequency with which women fantasize varies depending on their stage of the menstrual cycle. And right around the time of ovulation, we see the spike, this increase in fantasizing, right? So hormones play a role in fantasizing.
Sameena Rahman (:Sure. Sure. Sure.
Justin Lehmiller (:Then you've got the psychological factors, know, personality, attachment style, which I mentioned previously, that kind of predispose us to finding different things, attractive, exciting or sexy. And then you've got the the socio-cultural factors, like what's going on in the world around us or in the culture in which you reside. That also has an influence. So, for example, one of the things I find is that our culture shapes the types of people that we fantasize about. Right. So, for example.
When you look at Asian Americans who are living in the US, I find that they predominantly fantasize about white partners. But when I look at Asian individuals who live in Asian cultures, they predominantly fantasize about other Asian people, right? And that tells us something about how racial politics and relations within a given culture and stereotypes can creep into our fantasies and shape our standards of attractiveness. And we see in the US, like,
Sameena Rahman (:and the culture.
Justin Lehmiller (:there is this racial hierarchy of attractiveness and there are lots of negative stereotypes about Asian American men in particular, right? And so, you that's one example of how culture can influence fantasy. Another is we did research during the COVID pandemic on people's fantasies and how they changed. And something I saw that I thought was really fascinating was during the lockdown period when we couldn't go out and socialize and have our need for belonging and social connection met, people fantasize more about passion and romance, right? So our fantasies in a lot of ways
They're not just the product of culture and society, but that certainly does have a big influence on it.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah. So like a lot of sexual boredom that would really then involve into these high passionate conditions or situations. would be so interesting. Um, and like, what do you tell it? Like for people that, you know,
have so much shame around fantasies. How do you normalize some of that? Because I mean, they're like, definitely like, I, you you talk to your girlfriends, talk to your patients, talk to them, and they're like, my God, I can't even talk to you about or I can't tell because I'm just, I can't believe I would fantasize about a coworker or, know, somebody like how, how can, how do you talk to, you know, either therapists or whoever you're training with, or other people that you're working with to normalize the conversation around fantasy?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so actually a lot of therapists have recommended my book to their clients as a way of kind of normalizing diversity in sexual fantasies. And I've heard from so many people who have written me to say, I've read your book and I feel normal for the first time in my life. And I think a big part of it and a big part of sex therapy is really just sex education, right? Because none of us in sex ed learned about sexual fantasies or what is quote unquote normal to fantasize about. So
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:you know, looking at the data, the information that's out there, I think can go a long way toward normalizing fantasies for a lot of different people. So I think it starts first with just kind of educating yourself about, you know, how common are these fantasies anyway? And that can help people to feel less alone in having those fantasies. And, you know, sometimes that's not enough. think speaking with a sex therapist can also help because...
Feelings of sexual shame can be complex and very deeply rooted. This might go back to something in early childhood or a previous sexual trauma that you experienced or endured. so working with a therapist is very valuable in more complex cases like that.
Sameena Rahman (:I mean, is that like something you would tell someone if they were wondering like just unpacking their fantasies, right? Like, is this an empowering fantasy? Is this something that's rooted in cultural shame around, know, like I didn't grow up thinking I would be anything but heterosexual, but I'm having a lot of homosexual fantasies. Like, is that something that you talk about or tell people how to unpack that?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, I mean, that is certainly an example of where things can get more complex. Also, something I hear a lot about from people is, you know, they have a fantasy, but it's politically incorrect. You know, it's something that they feel a lot of discomfort around. So for example, I and many sex therapists have heard from a lot of women who say that they have, quote unquote, rape fantasies or, you know, fantasies about
Sameena Rahman (:Okay.
Justin Lehmiller (:forced sex. I don't like the term rape fantasy, but that's the term that a lot of people use. you know, many of these women will say, you know, I don't want to have this fantasy because it's not congruent with how I see myself as a feminist or does it make me a bad feminist to fantasize about forced sex when I want to support women who are victims of sexual violence? And so, you know,
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:Complicating factors like this, like your fantasy versus your perception of how you see yourself, oftentimes working with a therapist can be really helpful for things like that.
Sameena Rahman (:Absolutely. think that's the con. Yeah, I think that would be something. I mean, I see that often, know, like the patients that would tell me like, some of them themselves, you know, when we talk to them about what is it that brings you desire? What you know, what things turn you on? Is that something you communicate with your partner when they're suffering with low desire or arousal concerns? And I do find that to be the case a lot of times is that, you know, I don't want to talk about that with them because, you know, it's it's it's not congruent with what they believe in. But
but yet they have that fantasy. So I think that's very interesting. think it's something that what you're talking about in terms of communicating with your partner in the right way or maybe within the realm of sex therapy can be very beneficial. What do you think, what's one thing you wish more people knew about their partner's fantasies?
Justin Lehmiller (:Well, you know, I think the first thing to know is that odds are you and your partner will have some common ground, right? And your favorite fantasies might not necessarily line up or match up, and that's OK. But I think having a healthy sexual relationship together is a matter of finding the areas where you are compatible. And so there are a couple of apps that I often recommend. One is called X Confessions and the other one is called Own Your Sex.
And both of them are kind of like Tinder for sexual fantasies where you each complete anonymous survey about your turn-ons and then the app will compile your shared interests. And so the thing I like about these apps is that they can help you to hone in on the areas where you have common ground and then you don't necessarily have to get into sharing the things that only one of you is interested in, but the other isn't. So it can be really helpful for kind of just initially identifying what are some things that we might like to try or explore together. Now,
Sameena Rahman (:Mm-hmm.
Justin Lehmiller (:If you and your partner have very different fantasies, I think the thing that's important to know is that there are other ways to approach this issue. So I often encourage people, instead of asking the question of what do you fantasize about or what is your favorite fantasy, ask the question of how do you want to feel during sex, right? What are the physical sensations that you want to experience? What are the emotions? What are the needs that are being met for you? And so it's basically identifying each person's core erotic themes.
Sameena Rahman (:Mm-hmm.
Justin Lehmiller (:And then once you figure that out, you can kind of develop a custom fantasy together that's going to tap into everybody's needs. And so it might not look like your go-to fantasy does, but it can be intentionally designed in a way that's still going to meet the needs of everybody involved.
Sameena Rahman (:I like the idea of those apps too, because I feel like a lot of what we have to do is really self-advocacy and self-education. so really that is our best form of empowerment and building those bridges in our sexual relationships. What did you find in terms of research? And if you think about pop culture and the media, who do people fantasize about the most?
Justin Lehmiller (:Mm-hmm.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so at the time, so at the time the survey was conducted, I found that the most fantasized about male celebrity was Channing Tatum. And the most fantasized about female celebrity was Scarlett Johansson. And, you know, it was a lot of the usual suspects who appeared on the list, like people who have been named the sexiest man or woman alive, like, you know, the Ryan Goslings, the George Clooney's, the Jennifer Aniston's and so forth of the world.
You know, one of the things that I thought was interesting though, was that although most people have fantasized about a celebrity before, it was actually pretty uncommon for people to say that they fantasize about celebrities often, or that a celebrity is kind of like their go-to fantasy. More often than not, when we're fantasizing, we're fantasizing about people we actually know. So that could be a current partner, a former partner, a friend, and so forth. And I think that that speaks to the fact that in our fantasies,
Sameena Rahman (:Mm-hmm.
Sameena Rahman (:Sure. Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:They're often not just about sex. There's also some emotional subtext to them. It's wanting to feel desired and feel connected to somebody else. And it's just easy to imagine that with somebody that you kind of already have some type of bond with in real life.
Sameena Rahman (:And but I guess it gets, can be dangerous to fantasize about your spouse's best friend too much.
Justin Lehmiller (:So, yeah, so I did ask about kind of the forbidden fruit fantasies, if you will, and how many people have fantasized about their partner's best friend or maybe even their partner's sibling or parent, right? This does happen. It's more common than you might think. Again, just because somebody fantasizes about it doesn't mean they're going to do it or that they actually want to do it. But it is common for people to have the forbidden fruit fantasy. And if you have one of those fantasies,
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah. Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, I bet.
Sameena Rahman (:sure.
Justin Lehmiller (:Maybe that's something that you don't want to tell your partner, that you fantasize about their sister or their best friend. That's maybe just not an area you want to go to.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Right, right. It's so fascinating too, like how your, how the, human sexuality is and how your brain works in these scenarios. But I think you're totally right, because everything we do in sexual medicine is biopsychosocial. So it would be, you know, ridiculous for us to believe that our
biology, of course, is impacting us, our hormones and our neurotransmitters, but also, you know, the people we interact with on a daily basis, our relationships and the culture around us. And I'm wondering to what degree, like when immigrants come to the US, like, you know, to what degree they fantasize based on their level of acculturation, because that's something I see in my research to sexual pain and other sexual forms of sexual dysfunction, like your degree of acculturation can really shape
Like if you have like for instance, I have patients that I've seen that have You know had female genital cutting, you know And so people automatically assume that so many of them are gonna have you know orgasm dysfunction or you know sexual pain Where some of them look at that part of their culture is very empowering and they are very, you know Glad to have had that rite of passage and specifically if they are still in the culture or if they're still ingrained in the culture But when you have someone that's acculturated to a sort of more Western
traditions and how we, you know, have it as like an illegal thing here in the United States that they're not likely to really, they're gonna have more pain and more, you know, potentially work as a dysfunction. So I'm sure it's similar in that respect.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, I haven't looked specifically at acculturation and how that's associated with sexual fantasies, but I think you're right. And I would make the same hypothesis that you do that degree of acculturation is going to shape or influence at least to some extent, maybe the types of people you fantasize about or the kinds of things that you fantasize about as well, because culture does have that impact on us. But if you're somebody who retains more of your culture of origin,
you're probably going to experience less of a shift there.
Sameena Rahman (:Because I mean, in some ways you did, I mean, for the people that were East Asian that stayed in their country versus the ones that here, had different fantasies. So it's very interesting. Well, tell us, Justin, where your research is going now. Like you said that you now have 10,000. So did any of your, did any of the results change or was it pretty consistent? Did you have, ask any new questions from your previous book?
Justin Lehmiller (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so in terms of the newer research, I found that there's a lot of similarity in terms of fantasy content and themes. One of the things that I do see is a little bit different is that in terms of when I'm able to conduct nationally representative samples, I do see that there are some differences compared to samples where it's based on convenience sampling. And one of the differences is that in the representative data,
we actually see a higher prevalence of romance fantasies across the board. Romance actually seems to be the most popular fantasy when you're looking at representative data for both men and women. And men actually are slightly more likely than women to report romance fantasies in those samples, which is interesting. you know, I've been...
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:That's so interesting. But also less like reassuring, like, you know, there's some hopeless romantic stuff. Sure.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, we might not be as different as we think. also, you know, something else I can't help but shake the feeling about is that in the more recent data, how much has that influenced by COVID and what happened, you know, during that lockdown period? And I feel like we've entered this epidemic of disconnection as, you know, the pandemic restrictions were in place, and then also as our lives just became more focused on virtual interactions. And so it might just be
Sameena Rahman (:Sure. That loneliness is an epidemic, right?
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, and so it might just be that with loneliness being higher than it was before, maybe that's why we're fantasizing so much more about romance in the newer data. So, you know, there's still a lot more to explore there. But one of the things I'm doing right now in my current research is actually have a lot of work going on related to menopause. And we're looking at masturbation and self pleasure and how that's related to sexual function and well-being in women at different stages of the menopause transition. So that's been a
Sameena Rahman (:some.
Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:current area of focus. And then I'm also doing some work right now looking at the intersection of politics and dating and you know, how willing are people to date across the aisle politically speaking and it is and women are much more likely to find it to be a deal breaker, right? Where they'll say, I wouldn't date somebody who belongs to a different political party than me. And men are much more likely than women to eroticize it. Like where there's actually kind of like this kink element to it or there's kind of like this
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, it's very polarizing, right?
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:dynamic or differential at play that makes it kind tantalizing. Yeah, I know, right? It's another way of owning the libs, if you will, I guess.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, I'm dating a Democrat.
Sameena Rahman (:That's so interesting. Well, you let me know if you have surveys you want me to distribute to my patients. I would love to be involved in the capacity to help you in that regard.
But that is so interesting. feel like some of that we're going to see probably more and more. I wonder how this next generation of people who, I think about my own children, are so, their generation is so involved with just virtual stuff, like gaming, social media. We're all attached to our phones and everything like that. Nobody's actually asking anyone out anymore. There's just Tinder and swiping right.
You don't ever get, if you don't actually have that conversation where you have to approach someone, ask them out and get rejected, you don't have that feeling of this is like a human experience. So I wonder how fantasies will continue to change in the next generation. Are people gonna wish they could actually have conversations or whatever? Because it's so interesting. And then you think about how AI is so involved and people are having sex with AI.
different types of it and how that's going to change. that it? Did you look at AI in terms of fantasy? Like, did people fantasize about artificial intelligence?
Justin Lehmiller (:So I didn't look at that so much in my fantasy research, but I have done some other work on AI. And we do find that people are increasingly incorporating it into their sex and dating lives and turning to AI for help with things like creating their dating profile or creating conversation starters for how do I even talk to another person? And that's a whole other interesting thing because it's like, all right, if you're...
Sameena Rahman (:Thank
Sameena Rahman (:Sure.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:That's so interesting.
Justin Lehmiller (:chatting with somebody online and you're asking chat GPT, you know, to advise you on every response. Right. But then when people actually meet in person, they often find that like they can't even carry on a conversation because they were using the AI as kind of like this crutch. And so, you know, that's, know, an interesting intersection there. And then there's also the rise of AI chatbots as kind of romantic companions in and of themselves. And there are some people who actually kind of prefer to have a relationship with an AI.
Sameena Rahman (:just chat, keep it here then, dating.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:than they do with an actual human being in part because the AI is not judgmental. It's very affirmative. anybody who's played around with any of these AI programs, like, yeah, if you've ever been on chat GPT, like it's just so nice and affirming and kind. And so you're not rejected and it feels like safer, I think in a lot of ways to some people.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Sameena Rahman (:So interesting.
Sameena Rahman (:That's a great idea. think you should do it.
Sameena Rahman (:I don't know, it's true. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:And so some people might be sharing their fantasies with AI because they're less worried about being judged that way.
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah, that's true. That's so interesting. It's like back in the day when people would speak to you through an ear plug. my God, that's so interesting. I guess the world will continue to evolve and change and so we'll have to see how things evolve with it in terms of our sexual lives, fantasies and all that.
But you know what, I really appreciate you coming onto my podcast today, Justin. That was really swimming and fun conversation. Do you have anything you would want to say to the listeners who are concerned about their fantasies? Anything you want to tell them how to self-advocate for themselves? Because that's something we always try to leave a message with for them.
Justin Lehmiller (:Yeah, so when it comes to fantasies, I think the important thing to recognize is that odds are you are normal, right? The things you're fantasizing about are probably the same things that most other people are fantasizing about as well. And so for a lot of folks, that information alone is often something that can kind of lift the weight or a burden that they've been carrying around for a long time. And also think about if you've never shared a fantasy with a partner before, consider
Sameena Rahman (:Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:whether you might wanna try doing that in the future. Because what I see in the research is that overwhelmingly people say they have positive experiences both sharing and acting on their fantasies. And also women who share and act on their fantasies actually have the highest rates of orgasm, right? So there are lots of benefits to be had here. Again, like it's a conversation that requires being delicate and careful in terms of how you frame and approach the fantasy. But it can help us to get more of what we want. It can also create
Sameena Rahman (:very nuanced. Yeah.
Justin Lehmiller (:novel and exciting experiences and we all need some novelty in our lives because we tend to grow bored with sexual ruts and routines. And it can also bring you closer to your partner because through the process of sharing and acting on fantasies, we can develop trust and intimacy and a deeper connection than we had before.
Sameena Rahman (:I love it. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Justin Lay Miller. I appreciate you so much being on this podcast, and I look forward to seeing more of your research on midlife women. And if you ever dabble in the testosterone, I want to learn all about that have you back to talk about that.
Justin Lehmiller (:Will?
Sameena Rahman (:But appreciate, and you're gonna read in all the show notes where you can get in touch with him and where you can get his book. And I advise everyone to read it, because it's an amazing read. really, I think, again, normalizing a conversation that many people don't wanna have. So I think that's so important.
but I appreciate you once again. Thanks for listening today, guys. My name is Dr. Samina Raman. I'm a gynecologist. Thanks for coming up. Thanks for listening to my episode and tuning in to Gynecologist Presents Sex, Drugs, and Hormones. I'm Dr. Samina Raman. Remember, I'm here to educate so you can advocate for yourself. Please join me on my next episode. Yay.
