Dr. Tiffany Moon on Joy Prescriptions: Reclaiming Joy Beyond Achievement

Sameena Rahman (: 00:00

Hey y'all, it's me, Dr. Smeena Rahman, Gyno Girl. Welcome back to another episode of Gyno Girl Presents Sex, Drugs, and Hormones. I'm Dr. Smeena Rahman, and as you heard in my introduction, I'm super excited to bring you guys someone who I've followed for many years now and like really love everything that she's been doing. Dr. Tiffany Moon, I'll introduce you like Oprah. It's Dr. Tiffany Moon.

Welcome to my podcast. Anyway, I'm super excited to talk to you and I have your book Joy Prescriptions, which is the main thing we want to discuss. But I love everything that you have been representing, particularly when it comes to this book. I think that diving right into it, as women in medicine, we are all so goal oriented that we get to certain goals and then all of a sudden, like, this it?

But I just love just re-inspecting what joy is, right? Because I think that if you watch the news, if you watch, if you're on social media, there's so much, there's so lack of all sorts of joy out there that the fact that you're looking to find, you know, really, just tell us what brought you into this realm of wanting to seek out what joy really meant to you.

Tiffany Moon (: 01:18

Yeah, my whole life growing up, I just was on a path of achievement, know, going to the right schools, getting the right grades, going to medical school, getting into residency, and everything seemed to be a checkbox of sorts. And I kind of thought that when you checked off all the boxes that mysteriously a light would shine upon you and bless you with joy and fulfillment and satisfaction and a sense of worthiness.

Sameena Rahman (: 01:33

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 01:47

And guess what? It didn't. And don't get me wrong. I love all of the things that I did. And I love being a physician and a mom and a wife and entrepreneur. But something was missing. And after going to years of therapy, reading lots of self-help books, listening to podcasts, I kind of figured out that the joy has to come from within. And I kept looking for it externally instead of trying to cultivate it from within.

Sameena Rahman (: 01:49

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 02:16

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 02:16

which sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo new age. Like, what does that even mean to cultivate joy from within? Right? Like I just said a bunch of meaningless words. But really, it happened that way. And I really figured out that I need to figure out who I am, what I want out of life, stop people pleasing everyone around me, stop hanging out with these toxic people that drain my energy, learn to say no.

Sameena Rahman (: 02:19

is what yeah

Tiffany Moon (: 02:44

like learn to take risks. And when I started on this joy journey, it really transformed my life. I mean, that's when I opened up myself on social media. That's when I finally said yes to Bravo after they had been asking me for several years. And I was like, no, no, no. Finally, I was like, you know what? I'll try it once. Let's see what happens. And I just, I feel like it changed the whole trajectory of my life when I started to work on my joy.

Sameena Rahman (: 03:01

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 03:14

Yeah.

And I think that like, you know, if someone just picked up your social media and looked at her, she's beautiful. She's a doctor. She is, you know, she wears beautiful clothes and all the things that she must be very happy. Right. But like, you know, you're, think that's the, the, one there's good, the benefits and there's like negative things around social media. And I feel like it's the comparison game that people get that probably bring people to a negative place when it comes to social media. But what do you think? Like, I mean, if someone said, how, are you not happy? You know, like I think that that's,

something that I feel like people would want to know because again it's just what you people see on social media or like on media in general right? Yes.

Tiffany Moon (: 03:53

Yeah, well, I have a lot to say about social media, but I'll answer your question first, which is to say that I wasn't unhappy. Like when I started on this journey, I wasn't like, I'm so depressed. I don't know what I want to do with my life. It just was like a nagging sense of like, is this all there ever will be? Like I have checked off all the boxes on this list that you gave to me and like, where's my prize sort of? And there wasn't.

Sameena Rahman (: 04:18

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 04:20

But I wasn't unhappy. I still had lots of moments of happiness. I think that happy as a feeling is like very conditional because people will be like, I'll be happy when I'll be happy if and it's always based on something else. And I feel like joy is a more pervasive state of being than happy. You know, I feel like it's the expression of nourishing your soul.

Sameena Rahman (: 04:27

Right.

Sameena Rahman (: 04:31

Okay.

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 04:48

surrounding yourself with the right people, extricating yourself from difficult situations that are not good for you. So I think joy transcends happiness. It's all very murky. Again, I'm saying all these mumbo jumbo words.

Sameena Rahman (: 04:54

Right.

Sameena Rahman (: 05:04

No, but it's true. I think you're right. And you know, like my specialty, like I'm a sex med expert, right? So I talk to women all the time about pleasure, not just like, you know, if you asked an average woman who's been in a relationship for a long time, why they have sex, like 0 % will say it's because they're horny and they want like pleasure. It's more, it is, it's true. Most of the time it's like, Hey, it's cause I want, you know, I want to be able to like, you know, keep my relationship with my significant other going, or I want to like, um, uh,

Tiffany Moon (: 05:22

Heh.

Sameena Rahman (: 05:33

I wanna get that girl's trip, so if I do this for my husband, then he'll give me my girl's trip. It's all this BS that you'll come up with, but like 0 % literally will say it's because they're horny and they want pleasure. And it's because I think we're trained to seek pleasure for ourselves, and that's why there's a huge orgasm gap, a pleasure gap, and all the things. But don't you think a lot of it is our conditioning, not only as women, but you and I are...

you're East Asian, I'm South Asian, there's like that conditioning within our culture that we shouldn't strive for pleasure and comfort and all the things.

Tiffany Moon (: 06:06

Yeah, totally. I agree with you. I laugh, but that is like very true what you said. I think, you know, as children, we seek pleasure. do things that feel good. And then the adults are like, don't do that. Like, don't set your thumb. Don't touch your privates. You know, and you're like, I didn't know. You know what I mean? And then you become societally conditioned to like not seek pleasure and almost like do things for achievement rather than pleasure.

Sameena Rahman (: 06:10

you

resonating.

Sameena Rahman (: 06:20

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 06:35

So I think, yeah, think women are particularly bad about that. I think men, you know, give into their pleasure principles a little bit more than women do.

Sameena Rahman (: 06:45

Yeah, absolutely. And I just think that that's something, know, what your book really opens up is that like, you know, we should be seeking this for ourselves. We deserve this. Like, it's not like it's just for certain person or it's just for, you know, this is an inner peace that you receive, right? Like it's an inner peace.

Tiffany Moon (: 07:03

Yes, exactly.

Sameena Rahman (: 07:05

Yeah. so, and you also talk in your book about like a fertility journey and how, you know, there was actually a study that came out in Northwestern in 2023 and it looked at women physicians and it was like over a thousand physicians were surveyed. And it was really a look at sort of like childbearing infertility and trajectory of careers in women in medicine. And it showed that like three fourths of women delayed childbearing if there were physicians, one third women had struggled with

infertility and of those third like over 50 % had to use IVF like for their journey as physicians and over a half of them passed over career advancements in their career because they wanted to be with their children or you know because of the way or even going part-time or all these things and it sounds like you know you're like a classic case of you know what we see in medicine what we've all experienced in medicine is like the patriarchy that doesn't allow us to do what we need to

Tiffany Moon (: 08:05

Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. I was full time for eight years with director of residency recruitment. So I had like administrative appointments. I was part of multiple committees. I was running clinical trials and publishing a ton. So like it was full time and then some right with overnight trauma call. Yeah, it was crazy. And then after eight years, I went part time to four days a week, which is point eight.

Sameena Rahman (: 08:24

Right? Well, there's how this is going look at the next, right?

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 08:34

And then a year after that, I went to point six. And two years ago, my department put me up for promotion from associate to full professor. My department did. So I passed like our internal departmental review or else they would have been like, you don't have enough achievement research. Your teaching scores aren't good enough, whatever. But I passed the departmental review. And then when they sent it to the big PNT committee, they came back and said,

Sameena Rahman (: 08:37

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 08:46

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 08:50

Amen.

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 09:04

you're not ready to be promoted. And I said, why not? And they said, because you're part time. And I was like, can you make that make sense? Because I've published X amount of papers have excellent teaching scores. I do really difficult cases in the OR that surgeons request me for. But because I only work three days a week currently, you're not going to promote me. And they're like, yep, you're right. And I was just

Sameena Rahman (: 09:13

Yeah, it's like, what?

Sameena Rahman (: 09:22

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 09:32

I was like, no, you should extra promote me because I published more working point six than most of your faculty do working point one point zero. Yeah, it's it was just wild to me that that hold women back. And so I didn't get promoted, which is fine. I was pissed about it for about a week or so. And now, like, do I even think about it on a day to day basis? No. But I just think it's unfair that that kind of thing continues to happen when

Sameena Rahman (: 09:39

Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, WTF, right?

Tiffany Moon (: 10:02

The reason why the large majority of women go part time is so that they can spend more time at home with their children.

Sameena Rahman (: 10:10

And it's this whole concept, I think, that really drains most of us is like this idea of having and doing it all, right? Like it's just such a BS concept. think Shana, Shana.

Tiffany Moon (: 10:22

Rhymes. Yes.

Sameena Rahman (: 10:23

Rhymes, yeah. Shonda Rhymes said in a speech recently that when she's killing it on Grey's Anatomy, she's missing her kids' school. And when she's with her kids, she's missing something at work. You just can't do both at the same time. That's really good, really well, actually. And so how have you balanced it or not balanced it? Because it's not a balancing act. It's choosing, right? Choosing one thing over another at one point.

Tiffany Moon (: 10:50

Yeah, I think it's choosing and being intentional and being able to wear the different hats that we all wear on a daily basis. And then not feeling bad for when you're at work, you're not with your kids. And when you're with kids, the emails are piling up. Like that's okay. Like anyone who expects that they would be, you know, a great mom and a great entrepreneur, a great doctor all on the same day.

Sameena Rahman (: 11:08

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 11:18

is that's not realistic, right? Like there are days to be a great mother and there are days to be a great entrepreneur. I mean, I speak now at a lot of different conferences. And so last month I spoke at two conferences. I was gone for like six days total. So obviously, you know, I was not a great mom during those days that I wasn't with my kids, but maybe I was because maybe I was setting an example for my children that

when you have a passion for something and you're trying to grow yourself in something that you have to make sacrifices and you cannot be in two places at once. And that when I came back from those conferences, we had our mommy and me time, we went shopping, we watched movies, we had spa time and I made up for it. You know what I mean? So I think this illusion of balance is what drives women crazy because there isn't really any balance.

Sameena Rahman (: 12:11

And it sucks your joy, right? Like this idea, like that's the whole thing. It's like, I'm not doing it all and I need to do better. So I'll keep going and grinding.

Tiffany Moon (: 12:13

Right.

Tiffany Moon (: 12:21

Yeah, but see, the thing is that we have the final say on whether that sucks our joy or not. Like you get to decide if that sucks your joy. And if you decide that you're a great mom and a great doctor and a great entrepreneur, then that's what you are. Like that's the crazy thing about mindset is that you kind of get to decide. I mean, the kids these days say it's delulu, which is the cool way to say delusional.

I was like, what is delulu? They're like, and that girl is delulu. Okay, so be delusional, like drink your own juice. Tell yourself that you're an amazing mother, that you're amazing physician, like drink your own Kool-Aid because quite frankly, no one else is going to, you know, say all these wonderful things to you. And the fact of the matter is beating yourself up and be like, I was a terrible mother today. you know, I didn't get to my email inbox today. Like it,

Sameena Rahman (: 12:54

Or cringe.

Tiffany Moon (: 13:21

It doesn't serve you to have that guilt or to shame yourself. It doesn't serve you at all. It just makes you feel worse about yourself.

Sameena Rahman (: 13:29

Absolutely. I think that for like, I'm like, you know, I'm just a people pleaser. It's hard to say no to things. It's, you know, you feel like you have to do everything that, you people ask of you. But at some point, and I don't think you're there yet, but when you hit like perimenopause and like all the shits hitting the fan with your hormones and all the things, like you feel like you have to say like no more because that preserves your sanity.

Tiffany Moon (: 13:52

Yeah, no, I am knocking on Perry menopause is door. It's a little early for me. But if you read my book, you know that I do everything in life a little early. So I am getting the vasomotor symptoms, the brain fog, like the dry skin. It's it's right on the horizon for me. I feel it.

Sameena Rahman (: 13:55

Thank you.

Sameena Rahman (: 14:02

Yeah, that's true.

Sameena Rahman (: 14:13

Yes. Right. that's, you know, that's one thing that, you know, my other area of expertise is menopause. And so that's one thing I've talked to patients about in perimenopause all the time is because I think the irritability that comes up, the nagging.

things of like, feel like you're a midlife woman has to balance too much on their plate, right? Sometimes they're taking care of their sick parents. Sometimes they're taking care of their kids. Sometimes they're dealing with all the work related things and all the extra things. But I do find a lot of women pivot in period menopause, that that becomes like, I'm not doing any of that and I'm pivoting the way that I want.

Tiffany Moon (: 14:52

Yeah, over the last few years, I've really, you know, started to set healthy boundaries, which, you know, growing up as a Chinese American, like I never saw healthy boundaries being modeled for me. My parents did not have boundaries with each other, with their work. Like they didn't know what boundaries were. I just saw everything bleeding into everything else. But I've read a lot of books, done a lot of therapy lately, and now I have a lot of boundaries. Like I'm not going to do that.

Sameena Rahman (: 14:59

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 15:06

Thank

Sameena Rahman (: 15:14

No.

Tiffany Moon (: 15:22

one of the things that I told my assistant this year is like, cannot work for free anymore. I have done my fair share of lots of talks for free, lots of volunteering. Like I've done it. No one can look at the things I've done. I mean like, she's not helping others. And I'm like, but I'm trying to grow myself as a professional speaker and that means getting paid to speak. So if they don't.

Sameena Rahman (: 15:37

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 15:41

Absolutely.

Tiffany Moon (: 15:43

have the money, the budget to hire me this year, then the answer is no. I was like, don't even bring it to me. Because if she brings it to me, I'll be like, well, you know, I'm free that day and it's for a good cause or whatever. I was like, don't even bring it to me. If they don't have the budget, the answer is no.

Sameena Rahman (: 15:54

Yeah. Yeah, very good. Yeah.

Right, because we have to value ourselves as clinicians, as experts in areas, as speakers, as whatever we're doing, because if we don't ask for it, we're not going to get it. It's like no one's giving it to you. They want to do it. fine, some nonprofits can't afford things and whatever. But at some point, you have to understand what your worth is and ask for it.

Tiffany Moon (: 16:12

Yup.

Tiffany Moon (: 16:24

Yeah, exactly. And men do a fine job of that, actually. It's one of the things that we could maybe emulate from them.

Sameena Rahman (: 16:27

Very well.

Yeah, it's so true. And I think it's so, I think I heard a comedian say this recently was like, as they were losing, you know, estrogen and menopause, like they became, you know, like more decisive. were asking for what they wanted. And they're like, oh, I realized I just became a man.

Sameena Rahman (: 16:55

replace my testosterone. that's why I have no shits left to give. I'm basically like, you know, go fuck yourself and I'm a man.

Tiffany Moon (: 17:04

That is so funny, but not wholly untrue. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 17:08

Yeah, that's so true. Because I think that, you know, again, especially like some women are just more prone to people pleasing than others, but that's been the biggest hurdle for me personally. It's like, okay, I have to not care if that person thinks X, Y, or Z about me if I decide to do it.

Tiffany Moon (: 17:24

Yeah, exactly. And in my culture, I mean, I was kind of raised culturally to be a people pleaser, you know, like, and that's what I was praised for when I was young was being smart and obedient. Like those were the only two things I ever remember being praised for.

Sameena Rahman (: 17:30

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 17:38

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 17:43

It's so funny and it's so interesting because I feel the same like, if you listen to your parents, you listen to people around you, this is what you're supposed to do, right? Like it's, that's how you get ahead. That's how, you know, people will respect you like whatever, but it doesn't serve you well in the long run. I want to talk a little bit about,

Tiffany Moon (: 17:59

Right.

Sameena Rahman (: 18:05

some of the issues around burnout that you talk about, like the whole idea. I know I feel like it's trending or something, trending, but the reality is it's like, you know, I think, and I think you would agree with this, like the system in medicine is not built for like success from, for either patient or for the, for the physician, to be honest. Like I think that, you know, physicians aren't getting what they need when they see some certain physicians and physicians are burning out because of the system that

that has been built. Can you talk about your burnout experience a little bit?

Tiffany Moon (: 18:39

Yeah, I mean, I think all of us when we were young and applying to medical school, wanting to be doctors, we did it because we ultimately wanted to help people, you know, and we liked science. And then you go to medical school, you go to residency fellowship, become a doctor. You're doing all the right things. You're working your tail off. And somewhere in your mid career, you're sort of like, is this it? Like, is this everything I've sacrificed my life for? I mean, my 20s were gone.

Sameena Rahman (: 18:48

Mm-hmm.

Sameena Rahman (: 19:06

one.

Tiffany Moon (: 19:08

I spent my 20s in the library, right? Because it wasn't easy to get over all these hurdles. Like I had to study. I'm not just naturally brilliant and can memorize the Krebs cycle. Like I had to study that. Yes, which we use every day, yes. And so I had a little bit of resentment, I think, about it that I had missed on.

Sameena Rahman (: 19:09

The library, yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 19:23

which we use every day in medicine.

Sameena Rahman (: 19:33

See ya.

Tiffany Moon (: 19:34

on a lot of opportunities that my other friends got to do, like backpacking through Europe one summer. Well, I was in a research lab, know, padding my resume so that I could get into medical school, right? Because they told me you need to have research experience. You need to have a publication. Yeah. So my burnout started.

Sameena Rahman (: 19:41

Exactly.

Right. Right. Right.

Sameena Rahman (: 19:52

What are you doing there out partying and you're like in the light?

Tiffany Moon (: 19:55

Exactly. No, my roommate was like out partying. She came home at 2 a.m. from the club. I came home at 2 a.m. from the library. Like we were not the same. Yeah. So my burnout started, I would say about seven years into my career as an attending physician when I had basically mastered most of anesthesia. Right. Like there were not a whole lot of cases that.

Sameena Rahman (: 20:03

Yeah, sometimes later than that.

Tiffany Moon (: 20:22

truly challenged me, whereas like, you know, right when you're a new attending, you're like, my God, you know. And I just wanted to do something else outside of medicine. I didn't know what the other thing was. So I was sort of grasping at straws. I was sort of throwing things at the window and seeing what would stick. Right. So I tried. Yes, we need to send you some aroma, seizure, candle.

Sameena Rahman (: 20:26

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 20:40

Yeah. Love your candles, by the way.

Tiffany Moon (: 20:48

We I threw the wine business and I was like, I'll do a candle business. I'll do social media. I'll become a real housewife. That'll fix all my problems. I tried being a standup comedian for. Yeah, I I was literally just throwing things at the window because I needed something outside of medicine to express my creativity that made me laugh.

Sameena Rahman (: 20:57

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 21:02

mean, that's special.

Tiffany Moon (: 21:17

that allowed me to connect with other people. Because as much as I love anesthesia, there's no laughter. There's no creativity. You better not get creative in the operating room if you know what I mean. And there's definitely not much connection with other people because the surgeons are the surgeons and my patient is asleep. So it was getting kind of monotonous. You know, I'm like, I need to do something else. And that's when all this other stuff opened up to me. But through doing all of that other stuff, social media, writing my book,

Sameena Rahman (: 21:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 21:46

planning a women's conference, going on Real Housewives, that like totally blew my life open and exposed me to all sorts of opportunities that I never would have had.

Sameena Rahman (: 21:49

Yeah, we heard.

Sameena Rahman (: 22:00

Yeah, I love that you created the leader conference or the leader summit, right? Yeah. I wanted to come last year, but you I'm on the faculty of Ishwish the fall course and it was right at the same time. So.

Tiffany Moon (: 22:04

Yeah, lead her summit. You have to come. It's gonna be so fun.

Tiffany Moon (: 22:14

OK, well, it's November 7th through 9th this year in Dallas.

Sameena Rahman (: 22:18

Okay. yeah. Okay. All right. I'm gonna mark the calendar. Okay. Awesome. Yeah, but it looks like it's always a good course. Like people are talk ever not just met medical women. It's like met women from a lot of different career paths, right?

Tiffany Moon (: 22:20

Yeah, we got to fly to Dallas.

Tiffany Moon (: 22:34

Yeah, it's for female entrepreneurs, which some are doctors, but many are not. We had people in finance, lawyers, accountants, real estate agents who are running their own, you real estate brokerage. So basically just women who are running their own businesses out there hustling. They want to learn about, you know, being an effective communicator, negotiation, marketing.

Sameena Rahman (: 22:39

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 22:48

No.

Tiffany Moon (: 22:58

building a strong personal brand on social media, because I don't care what kind of business you're in, you need a strong personal brand. Whether you're a dentist or an accountant or own a, you know, rug cleaning company, you have to build a strong presence because if people don't know you, then they can't do business with you. And I'm like, social media is free. Like it's literally free. Like you didn't have to pay for a billboard on the highway. It's free. Everyone should be using social media to promote their business.

Sameena Rahman (: 23:05

Thank

Sameena Rahman (: 23:15

Yeah. They can't find you. Yeah. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 23:27

Yeah, it's true. Actually, and you know, because I started my own practice 10 years ago, just in guidance in sexual medicine and menopause. And it was true, like nobody, nobody knew I was there. I started like, you know, meeting people or then it got word of mouth or but some people come from social media or from like my podcast or whatever. But

Tiffany Moon (: 23:47

Yeah, there's so many women out there with amazing businesses or amazing ideas, but they're like, I couldn't possibly make videos. You know, I don't want to get in front of the camera. I'm like, why not? Like you're the face of the business. If you don't get in front of the camera, who is who's going to talk about this business or be more passionate about this business than you like you have to I'm just like, get over it.

Sameena Rahman (: 23:57

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 24:04

Yeah. It's so true, actually. And I think once you get over that hump, then you feel more comfortable.

Tiffany Moon (: 24:12

Yes, but they need a little help or they need some tips or hacks on like, what should I post? And so I give them some ideas and I'm like, social media is not new. Just like follow this account and just copy what they're doing.

Sameena Rahman (: 24:19

Yeah. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 24:26

Let's talk about as you evolved into the Real Housewives. So I watched some of the different ones, but when I found out you're on it, I think you first announced it on the doctor's purse website, the, you know, the doctor's purse Facebook group. And I was like, my God, have to watch it. So I followed you during that period of time, but tell me, tell us what like got you to want to do it. And then I want to talk about some of the things that happened on there.

Tiffany Moon (: 24:43

Yes. Yes.

Sameena Rahman (: 24:55

and how it affected your career.

Tiffany Moon (: 24:55

Yeah, so the reason I even was recruited to do the show was because my friend was on it. And basically, I think, not that I have vast experience, but basically in order to become a housewife, you have to have some connection to a current cast member. Like you can't be someone off the street that none of the cast knows. And at the end of each season, they ask the current cast members if they have any girlfriends that they could promote to.

Sameena Rahman (: 25:02

Okay.

Sameena Rahman (: 25:16

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 25:22

to be on the show. And Deandra would always be like, my friend Tiffany, she's like really funny and fabulous and loves fashion and purses, but she doesn't want to do it. Like she's very busy. She's an anesthesiologist. She has twins at home. And they would always try to get me to do an interview with the casting agent, but I always said no. And then I hit this like mid career existential crisis. Like, is this all I'm ever going to do? Am I just going to clock into the OR every day clock?

Sameena Rahman (: 25:23

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 25:30

and yeah.

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 25:41

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 25:52

out, like take call, miss my kids things, be sleep deprived, like all this stuff. And I was like, maybe I'll try it, right? Like, and so I talked to the producer and I was like, I don't want to get into something that I can't handle. And I don't want this to affect my professional reputation. And they're like, no, no, we will make sure that doesn't happen. And I was like, okay, fine. I'll do it.

Sameena Rahman (: 25:56

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 26:13

Yeah. And then you did it. then what happened with, how did your, like, how did your department take it?

Tiffany Moon (: 26:15

And then I did it and it was a shit show and now I'm not doing it. End of story.

Tiffany Moon (: 26:25

not well, not well. They were not excited when I told them.

Sameena Rahman (: 26:29

Yeah. then obviously, there was that whole incident that, well, I want to talk about some of the racism that you experienced. We all obviously, if you're out on social media, you get trolled for one reason or another. And sometimes it's around the things you're saying. But sometimes it's just because of how you look race-wise, whatever. And so you even talk about this in your book about the whole chicken foot experience and how that brought about so much distress, really. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Tiffany Moon (: 26:58

Yeah, I mean, the whole chicken foot incident is so stupid. I invited the girls to dim sum and chicken feet is like one of the dishes at dim sum that we eat traditionally. Now I know that not everyone is excited to eat feet, but in my culture, it's very normal. My kids eat it. And the producers thought it would be funny if I made all of the women try a foot. So I did.

Sameena Rahman (: 27:13

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 27:22

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 27:24

And I was very pushy and very insistent. And in normal life, like I wouldn't have acted that way. But because we were on a TV show and I knew the producers wanted me to make a moment of it, I was extra pushy. And I was like, just eat a foot, like just put it in your mouth. It's fine. I'm supposed to be like funny and not that deep, you know? And one of my castmates took it way too far, was like gagging, putting her food on the floor.

Sameena Rahman (: 27:37

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 27:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 27:52

made a whole thing of it. And again, she's also trying to make a moment, right? We're all like a thing. We don't normally act like that. But then she said that I was racist for making fun of my own mom on TikTok, which I did. And I was like very confused because I was like, how am I racist against my own race? Like you basically called all comedians racist because

Sameena Rahman (: 28:11

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 28:20

Right, exactly.

Tiffany Moon (: 28:21

Yeah, like that's what they do. And then the straw that broke the camel's back was when her husband and his brother went on social media and tagged my employer and insinuated that I was drunk the night before I had to go to work. Yes, girl. This was all I mean, this is all documented.

Sameena Rahman (: 28:43

Bye.

Tiffany Moon (: 28:48

and tagged my employer and said like, you were blackout drunk the night at my house and you had to work the next day, which is untrue. And the Bravo producers backed me up because I told them when I had to work the next day that I had a two drink maximum. And it's all on camera. You know what I mean? And so that's blatantly false.

Sameena Rahman (: 29:09

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 29:12

and then they said that I was racist again for making fun of my own race and then compared me to Nazis in Germany. yes, again. Yeah, it was wild. And this is not my castmate. It's her husband and his brother. And I was like, gentlemen, gentlemen, please do not get your panties in a bunch. This is called the Real Housewives of Dallas.

Sameena Rahman (: 29:25

What the hell is going on in the world?

Tiffany Moon (: 29:40

We don't need to be hearing from these men. Like when men get into like women's little fights, I just think it's like not appropriate. Yeah. So that was the final straw. It was already going poorly for me. I did not enjoy the experience. I don't think if for anyone who watched season five of Roll Housewives of Dallas, that it looks like I'm enjoying myself. But that was the final straw. And I was like, I am done. I am done.

Sameena Rahman (: 29:40

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 29:45

Yeah, it's this. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 30:01

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 30:10

good for you. Well, I'm glad you stood up for yourself. Because that's not OK, number one. Number two, sometimes it's hard to say, because this was an opportunity you wanted to try, and then you gave it your best. But then it just backfired.

Tiffany Moon (: 30:25

It just, it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be fun and I was going to make these girlfriends and we were going to be silly and pull these pranks on each other. And Bravo was going to go for us to take a fabulous trip. You know, we ended up filming in the middle of COVID, which again, no one could have predicted. And my fabulous trip was driving an RV to Oklahoma. And I was just like, this is not it. You guys like, this is not it. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 30:28

what's going to be.

Sameena Rahman (: 30:37

It's just not fun. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 30:44

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 30:49

my gosh. You talk a little bit about the birth of your twins, your cute little girls, and some of the anxiety that you brought. I mean, obviously, as an obstetrician, anyone that has had twins knows that there's a lot of risks involved with twin pregnancies. And how did you end up coping in that period of time?

Tiffany Moon (: 31:16

I didn't. People talk about postpartum anxiety. I had prepartum anxiety because I was pregnant with twins after struggling with infertility and I was put on bed rest at 30 weeks and I was so scared because we know too much, right? I was like, my God, they don't have surfactant. They're going to have respiratory issues and like retinopathy of prematurity. Like all these things went through my head, right? Because we know too much.

Sameena Rahman (: 31:36

Yeah.

Well.

Sameena Rahman (: 31:43

Yeah, yeah, all of that. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 31:47

And so I was on bed rest. I was doing my hardest to keep my babies in. I would pray every day and I made it to 36 weeks. I was like, oh my gosh, like how did this happen? I gained 75 pounds in like seven months, which is wild. Yes, two humans at the same time because as I said in my book, even my ovaries are overachievers.

Sameena Rahman (: 32:03

Right. You also made two humans. Yeah.

Thank

Tiffany Moon (: 32:15

And the fertility treatments may have had something to do with it. Anyway, yes, but the ovary joke was cuter. So, then I had my babies and I was so blessed and just so over the moon to have these two little humans. But then the enormity of it hit me and I was like, my God, what do I do with these babies? And like one of them had really bad reflux and basically after every feeding, she would spit half of it out.

Sameena Rahman (: 32:18

Breath, breath, breath.

Sameena Rahman (: 32:35

Thanks.

Tiffany Moon (: 32:41

and she wasn't gaining weight and I for sure thought she needed like surgery and had like gastric outlet obstruction and I just drove myself into a tizzy thinking about all the possible things that could go wrong as a new mom and that is no way to live life. And I wish that I had sought treatment at the time, I did not. I, I,

Sameena Rahman (: 32:52

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 33:00

Yeah, no, it's very strong.

Tiffany Moon (: 33:08

basically threw myself back into work as the treatment, which was not correct. I went back to work six weeks, full time. After having twins, my body was like, what the hell I was pumping in the operating room. You know, I had this like, portable thing that had a battery pack. And so I just like put it in my scrubs inside.

Sameena Rahman (: 33:18

Nice.

Sameena Rahman (: 33:23

I mean.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 33:28

and I would just be like, you know, drawing up some norepinephrine running an ACT like, and the thing is like, the surgeon's like, what's that noise? I was like, mind your own business. What I did was throw myself back into work as the solution for everything. And although it was a distraction and although it did get my mind off of, you know, baby things, it also did not actually treat the underlying cause of my anxiety, which came to

Sameena Rahman (: 33:31

Yeah

Sameena Rahman (: 33:38

Don't worry.

Tiffany Moon (: 33:57

bite me in the ass several years later when COVID hit, then I really lost it. But I was scared of what people would say or think, or I thought that maybe they'd put me on meds and I'd have to disclose it when I recertified for my boards and stuff. And I just, didn't understand and there was a stigma to seeking care for mental health. And so I just didn't.

Sameena Rahman (: 34:24

Yeah, no, think that's well, I think that's one thing that's, you know,

prominent for women, but also within our cultures, right? Like it's just a huge stigma around mental health to really seek, to even seek treatment. Like what is cognitive behavior? I know, cause even culturally, like if I tell, you know, my dad about someone having, you know, I'm gonna put someone in cognitive, what is that? know, they're always like, this doesn't even like, there's just so much stigma around mental health, I think that the fact that we can't bring ourselves to do that is,

is damaging to us. But I want to also just talk for a second, because something you said really struck with me is that like you went back to work and you're pumping in the middle of being in the OR. And like, I don't know when this became the norm that women feel, feel like they have to go right back into work and do all the things I just remember, like when I was pregnant, you know,

I was contracting in the middle of a C-section and it was like, you you tell someone else, well, when I was pregnant, I also had blah, blah, blah. And it was like, you're one upping me because you had to, you know, like, it just makes no sense that the toxicity of our career, you know, we tell patients they shouldn't do any of this and we go and do the same thing in worse because medicine is so toxic, especially for women.

Tiffany Moon (: 35:44

Yeah, no, it's terrible. I do hear people trading war stories of like, operated until my water broke, you know, and then I finished, you know. But yes, I don't think we should, you know, try to compete with each other on how hard we overworked ourselves. I think we need to have more

Sameena Rahman (: 35:53

Yeah. Right.

Tiffany Moon (: 36:06

for ourselves and for each other. And I think that, you know, this new movement, especially with this younger generation about being more open with their mental health and actively seeking treatment for it is a move in the right direction for sure.

Sameena Rahman (: 36:22

Absolutely. Do you remember that? think it was on social media a while back where it was trending that there was an OB who delivered her baby and then right after her delivery, we went to deliver someone's baby because their doctor couldn't make it. And it was like, like she shouldn't have had to do that either. Like, you know, like that's not okay for her. I mean, it's great that she did it, I guess, but like, you know, it's like, oh, like, again, these war stories of how hard we kill ourselves to self-sacrifice, right? Like it's not, I feel like at some point we should

Tiffany Moon (: 36:29

Bye.

Sameena Rahman (: 36:52

always like praise self-sacrifice.

Tiffany Moon (: 36:54

Yes, yes. And I've fallen victim to this too, for sure. I'm sure people will, you know, say things. And then, you know, my friend was telling me in France, you get a year paid maternal leave. I'm like, excuse me, I got six weeks of non-paid and not only was it non-paid, well, I guess it was paid because I basically exhausted my PTO. They basically took it all and then I had no days left.

Sameena Rahman (: 36:59

Thank you.

Sameena Rahman (: 37:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 37:19

Yeah. No data.

Tiffany Moon (: 37:24

They were like, oh, your FMLA only accounts for 12 weeks. If you don't come back to work, you might not have a job. I was like, what? It's crazy. then I, okay, so then I'm back at work. I maybe only had like a week that was non-paid because I, you know, used up all my PTO. Then in the first two years of my girl's life, like when they were sick or something, I couldn't even take any days off because I had no days left. Like I was at zero.

Sameena Rahman (: 37:30

All right.

Sameena Rahman (: 37:50

Yeah.

And it's so sad that we have to choose, you know, we have to make these decisions and choose these things. And at the end of the day, it's like, you know, what, what brings you that joy? it going to be, you know, like, and I feel like there was a time in my career where it did bring me a lot of joy to stay in the hospital till late at night and stay for that extract topic and stay for, but, people ask me all the time, like, are you sad that you gave up OB? And I'm like, you know, my quality of life is just so much better than just doing GYN outpatient, mainly minor surgeries.

No, unfortunately, I'm not sad. I'm very happy to not have to go in the middle of night. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. But it's just interesting to see that like, I mean, I'm glad I do think the next generation is not putting up with it.

Tiffany Moon (: 38:28

And you did your fair share. It's not like you've tapped out early. I mean, like you've probably delivered thousands of babies. Like you did your time. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 38:43

Also though, can I just say as great as I think our young generation is because it is the future, sometimes I'm worried because I have 21 year old stepchildren. They're also twins like my twins. And on Christmas, before Christmas, I asked one of them to help me address envelopes for our family Christmas cards because I was so busy and they needed to go out or they were gonna arrive after Christmas. And she was like,

Sameena Rahman (: 38:51

Sameena Rahman (39:08.666)

What? What?

Tiffany Moon (: 39:11

where do I write the address? And I was like, Oh, and then she was like, where do I put the stamp is at the top left corner? And I was like, have you never received a letter? And she's like, I have, I just don't pay attention. And I was like, Oh, I'm worried. And you know, that's a small thing. Honestly, anyone could goof about that, you know, but it's just like, they have the world at their fingertips, right? Because they grew up, I mean, my stepchildren got smartphones when they were like, fifth grade, they were like, 10 or 11. They got

Sameena Rahman (: 39:23

you

Sameena Rahman (: 39:32

Right.

Tiffany Moon (: 39:38

I didn't get an iPhone until I graduated from medical school. I got my first iPhone. And so I feel like, you know, they don't feel the need to like know stuff because they can always look it up. they, my God. And then my kid the other day like was like, mommy, no, that's not blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, that's incorrect. I was like, where did you hear that?

Sameena Rahman (: 39:39

Yeah. I know. Same. Same.

Sameena Rahman (: 39:52

Yes. And you trust everything they read on Google too, which like you

Sameena Rahman (: 40:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I know!

Tiffany Moon (: 40:03

She goes, YouTube. And I was like, so just because you saw it on YouTube, you think I was like, any idiot can make a YouTube and say anything. No.

Sameena Rahman (: 40:12

Exactly. Or like, my kids will be like, well, Alexa, can my dog eat this or will they die? You know, like, why don't you do some actual work and read, like, find the actual literature to see whether or not your dog will die if you eat this.

Tiffany Moon (: 40:26

Yeah, so I'm a little worried of who's gonna take care of us when we get old, girl, because these young people, okay, yes, they're into their mental health, and I love that for them, but like, they don't wanna stay late, they don't wanna work too hard. My daughter told me that she doesn't wanna be a doctor because I work too hard. That's literally what she told me. And I was like, we're screwed. don't know who's gonna, AI is gonna have to take care of us when we're old.

Sameena Rahman (: 40:30

No! Me too!

Sameena Rahman (: 40:44

Exactly. Yes.

Sameena Rahman (: 40:52

I mean, that's what they're predicting, right? mean, like, thank God we have some surgical skills so that we can, you know, like AI is not gonna put someone to sleep and AI is not gonna.

Tiffany Moon (: 41:00

Yeah, I made a funny TikTok that I was dancing with the ET tube and a laryngoscope. And I was like, job security is knowing that AI can't intubate. And then I put dot dot yet.

Sameena Rahman (: 41:09

Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's so true. But it's kind of scary. I mean, it's true. Like, don't know. Like, I know they have a lot more. Like they always say, there's more medicine for them to learn now. But they're just, I feel like a lot of them just aren't putting in, you know, the work. And, you know, there's a hierarchy in medicine that used to be like really, you know, it's not, not very marketable.

Tiffany Moon (: 41:14

Right, right.

Tiffany Moon (: 41:33

I know I had a medical student call me by my first name. I was like, uh, no, no. Like I actually don't really care. But the fact that you did it before you asked me is weird. Yeah. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 41:37

Yeah, no way.

Sameena Rahman (: 41:46

Exactly, Yeah. You took it. You overstepped your boundaries. Yeah, it's awesome. Anyway, I want to be cognizant of your time. I love the book, Joy Prescriptions, How I Learned to Stop Chasing Perfection and Embrace Connection. What kind of advice would you give the listeners who are trying to figure out the best way for them to... Because you're right. And I think the other issue is around social media, right? Like you just, you get connected with certain people, but you don't get connected, right?

Tiffany Moon (: 41:51

Yeah, yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 42:15

for sure. It's all very superficial. Yeah, it's not a true connection. Social media is not real. I feel like I can say that because I am, quote unquote, an influencer. I mean, we could go a whole nother hour to talk about social media. But what I will say is this comparison is the thief of joy. really is. You should only be comparing yourself to yourself. And when you look at someone else's feed, you have to remember that is very curated that stuff that they want you to see.

Sameena Rahman (: 42:16

Yeah. Yes.

Sameena Rahman (: 42:25

Yes.

Tiffany Moon (: 42:44

So people are not posting their bad stuff. They're only posting their good stuff. So for you to then compare your life to someone else's feed is an unfair comparison because it's their greatest hits versus your everyday. So that needs to stop immediately and also know that it's all very manufactured and it's what they want you to see and.

Sameena Rahman (: 43:00

Right.

Tiffany Moon (: 43:05

It's just I love social media. Like it's brought so much to my life. And some of my best friends now actually people are like, how did you meet? And I'm like, I DMed them. Yeah. And now we like hang out and they come to my house. But yeah, at first I slid into their DMs. Like, what do want me to say?

Sameena Rahman (: 43:21

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 43:22

So, you know, social media has brought so much good to my life, but it's also brought so much bad. It's made me cry. It's made me be angry. It's made me second guess myself. So, you know, the good, bad, the ugly of social media, we can get into that. think I'm going to give a talk about that at Lead Her Summit this year, because last year I didn't really give a talk, but I emceed the whole program. Like I introduced everyone, made sure we were running on time, made sure all the songs that were playing for the speakers were correct.

Sameena Rahman (: 43:27

Yeah, absolutely.

Sameena Rahman (: 43:39

I didn't.

Sameena Rahman (: 43:44

Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 43:50

But this year, I think I'm going to try to find someone else to emcee and that way I can actually give a talk about, I don't know, social media or like the importance of building a strong personal brand, something of that nature. I'm still marinating on it. But yeah, you have to come if you can this year.

Sameena Rahman (: 44:02

Yeah, that's great. That's really good. Yeah, I definitely will try. It's so funny you mentioned that about social media too, because sometimes my daughter is 13. She's not allowed on social media yet. But she knows when I've had too much Instagram, because she'll see me throw the phone at her. And she'll be like, mama, I'm putting an Instagram limit on you today.

Tiffany Moon (: 44:23

Yes, please. Please take my phone away from me so that I can actually be present with the people who are in front of my face instead of interacting. Yeah, I set a 30 minute timer.

Sameena Rahman (: 44:31

Yes.

Tiffany Moon (: 44:36

for my Instagram. This is bad, but at night I drink a glass of wine to unwind. because I say that I own a wine company, so I have to consume wine because I need to be knowing what's going on in the market out there. How will I stay apprised of wine knowledge if I don't continue to drink? So I drink my glass of wine at night and I set my timer for 30 minutes and that's my social media time.

Sameena Rahman (: 44:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany Moon (: 45:05

Because during the day, generally speaking, I'm not really on social media that much, maybe a little bit in between surgeries or if one of my cases gets bumped or something. But like in the OR, I'm teaching, I'm, you know, pulling up drugs, getting ready for the next case, consenting patients, like it's a busy day. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 45:13

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 45:21

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a good way to really summarize that to be present. I think will bring people more connection more or less, right?

Tiffany Moon (: 45:32

Yeah, I mean, don't you go to dinner and you see like a family and they're all on their phones and no one's speaking to each other? It's wild. No, it's wild. And I've done it too. I've been I've been out with my girlfriends before. And then for something, you know, somebody pulls out their phone and then we all pull out our phone. then like five minutes later, no one's talked to each other. And I'm like, and then I'm and then I'm like, OK, besides, you know, like emergency kid issues or whatever, like, let's all put our phones away and interact with each other.

Sameena Rahman (: 45:38

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 45:50

Yeah. Let's bring it up.

Sameena Rahman (: 45:59

Yeah, it's so true. My husband's not on social media, so he's always like, get off me, mom. So much joy, actually. Yeah, that's his joy prescription, right there.

Tiffany Moon (: 46:02

Mine isn't either. And I really think that that brings him so much joy. Like the fact that he's not on social media. Yeah.

Yeah, be not don't go on social media or if you are like use it for good. And if you see yourself comparing or you see posts that make you feel bad about yourself, then you're not using it correctly. Like change the way you use it. Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 46:18

Yeah.

Sameena Rahman (: 46:24

Exactly. Yes, exactly. Or if there are people that really are toxic to you, just unfollow them. Well, Tiffany. I love that you were able to come on today and talk to us about everything you've experienced. I love your candidacy. love your joy that you bring to others, too. So I appreciate you.

Tiffany Moon (: 46:30

Block, block.

Tiffany Moon (: 46:46

Yay! Thank you so much for having me.

Sameena Rahman (: 46:49

Of course. I'm Dr. Smita Rahman, gyno girl. Thanks for joining me on another episode of Gyno Girl Presents Sex, Drugs, and Hormones. Remember, I'm here to educate so you can advocate for yourself. Please join me on my next episode. Yay.